Let’s Talk About Plagiarism with Darcy Vance
PRIDE AND PREJUDICE AND PLAGIARISM
It is a truth universally acknowledged that an author in possession of good ethics would never willingly employ the words or thoughts of another writer.
Except we do. A lot.
Take my opening statement – I did. It comes from Jane Austen’s classic novel, Pride and Prejudice. A quick glance at the Wikipedia entry for P&P lists more than 130 “literary adaptations” of the same story, most of them penned within the past decade. I can think of at least five additional novels in the young adult genre that didn’t make that list. One of them is The Geek Girl’s Guide to Cheerleading, the story I co-wrote with Charity Tahmaseb. Some of those books follow the plot path of Austen’s work more closely than ours but we all owe her more than a nod and a wink.
And that’s just one source of inspiration. If you like your reading on the fairy tale/fable side, you’re in luck. Snow White, Cinderella, Little Red Riding Hood, each have been retold dozens of times. Romeo and Juliet? Hundreds. Maybe thousands. Ancient myths? Ditto.
Writers aren’t only influenced by authors long dead either. Does anyone really think it’s just coincidence that a plethora of vampire and werewolf novels hit the bookstore shelves soon after Stephanie Meyer’s ridiculously successful Twilight series took off? And – is there a literary agent alive who isn’t hoping one of the authors in her stable is currently tip, tap, typing out the chapters of the next Hunger Games?
Speaking of Hunger Games, many have asked this question: Is Suzanne Collins’ amazing trilogy nothing more than a warmed over Battle Royale? Ms. Collins says it is not, that she wasn’t influenced by the Koushun Takami novel at all. In several interviews she shares her true inspiration for the story: a mash up of the Survivor reality TV show, news footage from the war in Iraq, and the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur.
I’m okay with finding inspiration wherever you can get it. And I’m in good company too; some pretty outstanding literary minds agree.
Noted writer and philosopher Joseph Campbell based his life’s work on the belief that there is truly only one story that we tell over and over again. It is often reported that poet and critic T.S. Elliot said, “Good writers imitate. Great writers steal.” When Mark Twain learned that Helen Keller was accused of borrowing content for her first short story, he sent a letter to her stating, “All ideas are second-hand, consciously and unconsciously drawn from a million outside sources, and put to daily use by the garnerer with a pride and satisfaction born of the superstition that he originated them.” (LINK: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120511/03575518878/mark-twain-copyright-maximalist-who-also-believed-that-nearly-all-human-utterances-were-plagiarism.shtml )
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not in the camp that says, Plagiarism, eh, what’s the big deal? I think taking credit for someone else’s work is a very big deal. Plagiarism, when both commission and intention are clear, is shame-worthy and difficult to forgive. It’s also not always that easy to define.
Sometimes it is. Like in the case of Cassie Edwards, whose cut and paste lifting of passages from reference materials was outted by sharp romance reviewers Dear Author and Smart Bitches, Trashy Books in January, 2008. Or young phenom writers Kaavya Viswanathan and Helene Hegemann who’s proclaimed first novels were found to contain material borrowed nearly word for word — from young adult novels in Viswanathan’s case, and an anonymous blog in Hegemann’s. Or the super duper whopper of thievery, Q.R. Markham’s spy novel that included lines and passages from at least a dozen other tales – one of them six pages long!
Those are easy, but what about things like Fair Use, Common Knowledge, fan fiction?
Before she became a best selling novelist one young writer was widely read on internet sites that feature serialized stories based on the works of J.K. Rowling and J.R.R. Tolkien. She was also once accused of plagiarism. But really, is it even possible to steal from a writer who is already borrowing the characters, setting and plot of another published author?
Then there are tropes, which the Merriam Webster Dictionary defines as: common or overused themes or devices. Where would the romance genre be without its secret baby stories? Or detective novels without private eyes whose personal lives are in disarray? If we banned all future use of the familiar: boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl, boy wins girl back, the world of YA Lit might implode in the vacuum. And yet, at one time, each of these was an original idea.
Remember T.S. Elliott? That ‘great writers steal’ guy? He was actually misquoted. What he really said was: “Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.” But that’s just the sound bite. Here is the rest of what he said on the subject: “Bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn …”
No matter how well meaning we may be in defending the rights of original artists, when we rely on sound bites, offer only pithy condemnations, and pretend that plagiarism is always a simple matter of black or white, yes or no, we trivialize the subject and stifle discussion. That seems like a dangerous tactic in an age where many of those joining the ranks of authors and bloggers grew up with remixes, mash ups and memes.
Instead, maybe we should resolve to steal more. I suggest we start back with Jane Austen and her much beloved and often imitated classic. In it, her characters learn the folly of being too proud to admit they are capable of error, and too prejudiced to realize not every oops has an evil intention behind it. It is only when they loosen their death grip on what’s proper that they are able to right the wrongs of the past and affect the kind of permanent change that leads to happily ever after. Just sayin’.
Darcy Vance‘s essays on family life have appeared in regional newspapers and her first novel was a finalist in the Get Your Stiletto in the Door Contest. She is the co-author, with Charity Tahmaseb, of The Geek Girl’s Guide to Cheerleading, and lives in Indiana. Visit her at thegeekgirlsguide.com/wordpress.

Dare You To
Level 2
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Darcy
I’d like to add that I had a mostly pleasant conversation with azteclady last night and she pointed me to a very useful blog post by Dear Author on plagiarism copyright and fan fiction: http://dearauthor.com/features/letters-of-opinion/fan-fiction-plagiarism-and-copyright/
Worth a read!
azteclady Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Perhaps it also be useful, Ms Vance, to point people to the ‘mostly pleasant’ conversation?
For anyone interested in actually learning about what to do when caught with the hand in the cookie jar (i.e., in the wrong, like Kristie Diehm here), visit Grit and Glamour’s Damage Control 101.
For those who “forgot,” Grit and Glamour, along with Beautifully Invisible, was one of the people plagiarized by Kristi Diehm.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Hat – Peacock Blue Explosion of Romance by HerHandsMyHands
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Jodie
This post is totaly ridiculous. At a base level fan fic and published works inspired by, or remixing the work of other authors (P&P&Zombies for example) has the good manners to acknowledge the original sources that inspired the work,plagarism does not. Aja’s post ‘I’m Done Explaining Why Fanfic Is Ok’ doesn’t exactly explain why fan-fic and inspired works aren’t plagarism, but it does set out what makes fan-fic and inspired works legal: http://bookshop.livejournal.com/1044495.html and the OTW provides a clear explanation of the distinction between fan fic and plagarism, which relys on ideas of acknowledgement: http://transformativeworks.org/faq/legal
And that coded paragraph about a young writer who was accussed of plagarism is just…whatever. I’ve read the transcripts and there’s no doubt in my mind what she did.
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Thanks for the links. I hope to read and learn more about fanfi tonight.
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
uh, fanfic, that is. Thanks again!
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 12:06 am
Read them. Still a little confused but I am on my way to understanding the topic a little better. Thanks again for the links.
Jodie Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:36 am
I don’t want to be harsh, but perhaps if you’re saying you don’t really understand the distinction you shouldn’t have been writing an educational post about supposed similarities between work inspired by other work and plagarism. Or maybe you shouldn’t have included fanfic in a line that implies it’s hard to know what the line between fanfic and plagarism is, but rather framed fanfic as something you are personally confused about. Whether fanfic is plagarism is NOT a grey area and a lot of fanfic writers are caused distress by the unthinking, untruthful repated assertion that fanfic and plagarism are pretty close to each other.
This piece that you’ve written really seems more like an opinon piece from someone who has questions herself, than instructional piece on reality and I’d have appreicated you clarifying that. I kind of thought, from what the SS said, the focus of this week was supposed to be on educating readers on the true nature of plagarism, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here.
azteclady Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:16 pm
*nodding along*
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 11:17 pm
You weren’t harsh at all and I appreciate your opinion.
Yes, I don’t know much about fan fiction but the reason I included it in my post (which – you’re correct – is an opinion piece) is that most of the people I’ve talked to who are not involved in the fanfic community have questions about whether it’s legal or ethical. You said yourself, “a lot of fanfic writers are caused distress by the unthinking, untruthful repated assertion that fanfic and plagarism are pretty close to each other.”
The main point of my post is to show that a lot of people DO have questions about plagiarism. And yes, I include myself. As such, shouldn’t we consider talking about what it is, why it’s wrong and how to prevent it instead of screaming at each other and taking sides?
Because it seems to me like we’re really all on the same side when it comes to plagiarism — againt it.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Kate @ Kate's Book Nook
Twitter: katesbooksnooks
Very well written post by Darcy Vance. I was explaing this whole situation to a student I tutor and she really did not understand how what Kristi did was plagiarism. Plagiarism isn’t as black and white as many people make it out to be and a lot of people don’t fully understand what is plagiarized and what isn’t. This is a very relevant topic to discuss and I am glad you are spending a week having get posts, Kristi! It is very educational.
Kate @ Kate’s Book Nook recently posted..Hours 17 – End of Readathon Running Update
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Thank you for the compliment and your positive contribution to the discussion!
azteclady Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Color me not very surprised, since you don’t seem to understand what plagiarism is. Perhaps you could rely on the words of one Kristi Diehm, blogger you admire and support? She wrote–and then deleted–a post on the topic, after being plagiarized herself, in which she explained it very very clearly.
Oh but wait, you can’t read it here, because she deleted it when she herself was caught doing exactly what she wrote about.
But you can follow this link, or do a search of the wayback machine.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Hat – Peacock Blue Explosion of Romance by HerHandsMyHands
Kate @ Kate's Book Nook
Twitter: katesbooksnooks
Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 9:17 pm
Azteclady- please do not assume to know anything about me. I am a math tutor not an English tutor so fault my students teacher, not me, for her not understanding what plagiarism is. We were just talking about things at the end of the session an I brought this up. It is my job to make sure she understands her Geometry lesson, not her English lesson.
In addition, do not assume that I am some die hard story siren fan. The fact is that I hardly ever read her blog. Mainly just the In My Mailbox posts. I scrolled right past the posts she plagiarized when they were published because they didn’t interest me at all. I don’t admire her anymore than I admire any other of the 100+ blogs I follow. I do support her right to continue blogging and to try to make amends. I do not support you being so hostile against everyone who disagrees with you. You can think that what Kristi did is wrong and that he has done enough to make amends, that is your right, but you do not need to be a bully and you shouldn’t act like you know things about people you have never met or interacted with outside of this discussion!
azteclady Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 2:53 pm
I don’t presume to know anything about you but what you write–and what you write clearly indicates that you don’t understand what plagiarism is, what an apology actually is (hint: saying sorry you caught me, poor me is not an apology, no matter how loudly it’s repeated), or how disagreement and bullying differ.
Beyond that, I don’t particularly care whether or not you support my right to disagree with you or anyone else.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 11:21 pm
al, I’m sure Kate can hold her own but when you (I’m trying to think of a kinder word for it but I can’t) attack her because she responded positively to something I wrote, I feel invested in the argument.
I’M the one who wrote the post, please aim your arrows at me, k?
azteclady Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 10:38 am
Ms Vance, that’s not how a conversation among several people works. And, for better or worse, comment threads in blogs are basically conversations between the people posting comments–not a question/answer session after someone delivers a lecture.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Laura
This whole series is so farcical, that I am galled that authors and librarians are participating. Now have a 3rd rate author telling you to steal more? Are you for real? Does TSS need her ego stroked anymore than it has been? Perhaps, TSS should go back to school and learn what and how devastating Plagiarism is. I can now honestly say that anyone partaking in this stupidity is off my list as authors to read or people to look after. This week-long edumacational schmooze fest is a joke.
Laura recently posted..Hard Weekend
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Call me a third rate author if you want. To tell you the truth, I’m still thrilled to be called any kind of author at all. However, I have a co-author who is DEFINITELY NOT THIRD RATE! In fact, when you read our book (you did actually read it, right?) you have to admit there were quite a lot of first rate parts to it. Each of those was written by my partner, Charity Tahmaseb. I believe you owe HER an apology.
Laura Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
I have no idea who you or Charity Tahmaseb are. But you’re post here is so full of inaccuracies and you’re just posting here to get, what, more readers? I’m galled by the fact that anyone would partake is something so ridiculous as this. WE don’t need education in plagiarism, we’re not the ones who did it. TSS did. She stole from other bloggers SIX times. She says she didn’t mean it. Um, once is a mistake, SIX times is deliberate. Perhaps you should have done due diligence on blogs that you partake of. I know that if I was an author, I would never want to have anything to do with a known plagiarist and one who can’t even apologize correctly. And then you ramble about fan fiction? Do you even know what FF is? it’s using already known characters and coming up with a story of your own. I really don’t think you researched your topic very well. And quoting Dear Jane Austen is just wrong on all levels. And yeah, you’re a 3rd-rate author.
Laura recently posted..Hard Weekend
PML Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 8:42 am
*slow claps to Laura*
I’m dying laughing here. So true. Great to see that not everyone is a mindless zombie around TSS.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Laurie Gray
Great article, Darcy! I tend to believe that there is nothing new under the sun, but that authors can take what Joseph Campbell would call a common myth and create a unique story in light of their own experience for their target audience. I often tell kids that my YA novel Summer Sanctuary is really just a modern version of the Good Samaritan.
I look forward to reading more articles and novels from you, Darcy!
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
<3 Thanks, Laurie!
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Jordan Butcher
My friends and I talked about The Hunger Games in comparison to Battle Royale for hours after seeing the movie. Our consensus ended up being that it’s the overall story that is created in the trillogy that sets it apart from the other. Nothing is original. Everything you write even when you think it’s completely your own is inspired from something else, whether it be another story you read, a song you listened to, a TV show you watched… Knowing all of the mythology and storylines that have been created over the years, all we can do as writers is do our best to create our own characters with their tales (as authors creating fictional stories). Does this mean that anytime that there is a love triangle involved in a story that it’s plagerism? Or that any story with a vampire is automatically a Twilight ripoff? No way.
Bloggers obviously have a different set of rules to follow. However, siting sources, leaving links to where you found your information and direct citations with quotes can make a world of a difference. I can see with how much we as bloggers read and write, how easily plagerism can happen. We simply have to be as conscious as possible to keep it from happening. Because it is preventable.
Jordan Butcher recently posted..Guest Post: Tiffany Allee
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Great addition to the discussion, Jordan! Thanks!
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Helga
It’s T.S. Eliot with one “t” in the last name.
Helga recently posted..Meditation on the Joys of Reading Alone (Together)
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:17 pm
I also spelled Stephenie wrong. My bad.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Barb
So I should make sure I steal liberally from your post should I decide to create my own “plagiarism is wrong” essay? Except you’re saying…it isn’t?
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
Feel free to take whatever you wish as long as you plan to: “make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn …”
Otherwise we’ll all just find ourselves on another site, fielding impolite comments about you next time. I’m sure you don’t want that
azteclady Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
*chuckle*

Obviously..or not
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Hat – Peacock Blue Explosion of Romance by HerHandsMyHands
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Jennifer Armintrout
You are incorrect on so many levels. Plagiarism is absolutely black and white. Either you stole something, or you didn’t. If you’re acknowledging your source material, and if you have the legal right to use that source material, it is not plagiarism. How hard is that to understand? You are absolutely saying that plagiarism is no big deal, and that all authors do it. No, we really do not. Do not speak for all of us, especially if it’s to call us all plagiarists.
This entire “education” week is a joke. “Education” implies that people will learn something of value. There is nothing here but excuses, and they’re even more ridiculous when dressed up like this.
Jennifer Armintrout recently posted..In case you were wondering…
azteclady Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Thank you, Ms Armintrout, for saying what many of us are thinking. Perhaps your words will carry more authority with some of Kristi Diehm’s young readers–because when it’s just bloggers disagreeing with her, we are accused of not knowing what we talk about or of being jealous of her ‘accomplishments’
I would hope no one will consider accusing you of either.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Hat – Peacock Blue Explosion of Romance by HerHandsMyHands
Karen Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
My thoughts exactly.
Karen recently posted..Series Recommendation: Chaos Walking Trilogy by Patrick Ness
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
Perhaps I misspoke. Plagiarism is indeed black and white. You either steal something or you don’t.
It is, however, possible to misunderstand the term – even if you THINK you know what it means.
This, I believe was Ms. Diehm’s biggest sin. She was too proud to realize she might not have it all figured out and didn’t apply the same diligence to herself that she would have expected (and recognized the lack of) in other bloggers. Pride motivated all the blunders that followed too.
This has been a hard lesson for her to learn, with very real consequences to her. And maybe she’s not done learning that lesson yet.
But, IMO, she’s not the only sinner this week. So many smart women chose to involve themselves in this topic. They could have added so much, taught so many. Instead they chose to belittle and destroy and not only that, but distract others from learning how to identify and prevent the very thing they profess to hate.
Who suffers the consequences of that? All of us.
Jennifer Armintrout Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:56 am
No. It is not the responsibility of other bloggers, authors, or readers to facilitate education about plagiarism because this blogger plagiarized. The authors and bloggers who have spoken out against plagiarism, even if they weren’t nice about it, have absolutely no responsibility for the actions of this blogger or the aftermath those actions caused. If people are angry, it’s their right to be angry. They don’t have to turn it into a learning experience, and they don’t have to be nice about it. The suggestion that they should? That is a distraction technique, and one that you’re employing to spread the blame around. One person is responsible for this mess. It does not take a village to prevent plagiarism.
That said, I’m out. This is such unbelievable nonsense.
Jennifer Armintrout recently posted..In case you were wondering…
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 11:25 pm
And here’s where we disagree, “It is not the responsibility of other bloggers, authors, or readers to facilitate education about plagiarism because this blogger plagiarized.” I think it is absolutley the responsibility of all of us to do whatever we can to reduce plagiarism whenever it occurs and whoever causes it.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Pamela
Enough about plagiarism! I want to read about books!
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
Patience, Grasshopper.
Pamela Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 9:37 am
No. I go to my Academic and Business Writing class to learn about plagiarism. I go to The Story Siren to read about books.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Imogen
I think this post is wildly misguided, but I’m going to focus on one particular argument I find particularly egregious.
Before she became a best selling novelist one young writer was widely read on internet sites that feature serialized stories based on the works of J.K. Rowling and J.R.R. Tolkien. She was also once accused of plagiarism. But really, is it even possible to steal from a writer who is already borrowing the characters, setting and plot of another published author?
Cassandra Clare DID plagiarize, which is manifestly obvious if you look at the passages in question and which she has admitted. But you seem to imply that she was plagiarizing JK Rowling by writing fan fiction and is that really plagiarism blah blah blah. This is wrong on a number of levels.
First of all, fan fiction is NOT plagiarism and to conflate the two things is both ridiculous and reductive. There are many people who have explained this with great clarity, so I won’t get into it.
Secondly, and more importantly, Cassandra Clare’s plagiarism scandal was over passages she copied almost word-for-word out of published novels by author Pamela Dean and passed off as her own. I think we can all agree that IS INDEED plagiarism.
Darcy Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Forgive me. I really didn’t know much about fan fiction before this whole thing went down. It’s a new-ish area and I am an old fogey. Then, when I started researching it, the first source I came upon suggested Ms. Clare stole from a fellow fan fic writer. Thus my question. Thank you for sharing your knowledge of the situation.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
kai charles
Hi Darcy. Im nit familiar with you or your books but I know one thing, there is no one else like YOU. No man is an island or a void. We all dip from a collective pool. The sadness with plagarism ispeople really dont realise what they have to offer.
Trying to lay a foundation for taking credit for simething that isnt yours is sad. And in my opinion cannot be justified.
Instead apologies are required, reevaluating yourself and your work is required, and most importantly finding that creative spark in yourself no one else has.
Making excuses and validations for theft is just being another lemming on a very steep cliff
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 11:31 pm
Hello Kai, I like everything you’ve said here and I agree with all of it.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Darcy
On the Lighter Side …
A lot of people on here have said they think it was impossible that Kristi didn’t know what she was doing was wrong. In response to this, I offer:
Improbable Things I Didn’t Know
I didn’t know meat came from animals until my 3rd grade class took a field trip to a stockyard. (Oh the horror!)
I didn’t know that b*st*rd was a dirty word until I was 11 and used it to describe my babysitter’s husband. (Mouth, meet soap)
I didn’t know cars needed oil until I had ruined my second engine.
I didn’t know babies couldn’t eat carrots until my friend had to hang her 9 month old upside down in a restaurant to get them out of him.
I started using computers in the age of DOS but it took me years to realize that space inVALid was not space INvalid. (I kept imagining an astronaut floating through space in a fool body cast.)
I was well into my 30′s before I encountered the term, lefty loosey/righty tighty. (Until then turning the garden hose on or off was always trial and error.)
Just last year I realized that when AC/DC sings about Dirty Deeds they are “Done dirt cheap” and not somehow tied to a weird, mythical creature called the Dunderjeep.
True.
All of it.
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 12:59 am
ahem, *full body cast.
Jodie Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Yes but once again, The SS wrote a post explaining what plagarism was and why it is bad. So…not really sure how she didn’t know what plagarism was.
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:07 am
I’m starting to think this is a generational thing. The more my years and mistakes pile up behind me, the more I am willing to give people the benefit of doubt. And the less likely I am to spend my energies fighting instead of looking for a way to make things better.
You say Kristi understood that she was doing wrong when she did it because she wrote a blog post about it once (which I admit I haven’t read). I say I can tell you what the distributive property is –but that doesn’t mean you should trust me to help anyone with their math homework.
But anyway, my intentions this week were not to explains Kristi’s actions and motivations, or to justify or defend them. My intention is to encourage open discussion about plagiarism so that it is less likely to happen in the future.
Irish Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
Ah…but she did know what did and didn’t make up plagiarism. She had a whole post about it which she then deleted.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110103164916/http://www.thestorysiren.com/2010/04/my-one-piece-of-advice.html
A commenter named Jane posted a link to in under Kristi’s clarification post.
Irish recently posted..Review: Dark Goddess by Sarwat Chadda
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:10 am
Pardon me for not responding directly but it’s late and I’m tired. Please see my comment to Jodie.
Alanna Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
I wasn’t going to comment on this at all, I was just going to read the discussion in silence but the more of your comments I read, the more annoyed I get.
This post seemed pretty ignorant about what plagiarism is and the differences between plagiarism and being inspired by something.
Your post basically just seemed unclear because it doesn’t really acknowledge that the real “crime” in plagiarism is claiming someone elses work or creation as your own, taking credit for something that someone else did (that’s why fanfiction or retellings of things like Pride and Prejudice aren’t plagiarism, they never claim credit for the parts that shouldn’t be credited to them and they’re upfront about where their inspiration is from).
I’m not going to say anymore about your guest post than that, but about the comment above:
Kristi has been plagiarised in the past and she posted about plagiarism when it happened to her – that post, which she has since deleted, made it very, VERY clear that Kristi was not ignorant about what plagiarism was when she decided to do it herself. She knew what it was and knew it was wrong, she just didn’t think she would get caught, she thought she’d reworded someone elses posts enough for it to go unnoticed. But it didn’t, and she has still yet to apologize to the people who truly deserve her apology (which seems to be one of the main issues people have with this whole situation from the comments I’ve seen).
Trying to justify her actions is just going to annoy people (you may not realise you’re doing this, but your little examples of, “I didn’t know X was wrong until Y happened” are doing exactly that – implying that maybe it was the same for Kristi but it wasn’t, and anyone who read her now deleted posts on plagiarism know that).
I’m sure your intentions with this post, and suggesting the idea of these guest posts, were good, but you should educate yourself on an issue before trying to educate others about it.
(sorry if this comment shows up more than once, it kept saying there was an error when I tried to submit it)
azteclady Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
This, all of this. Thank you.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:19 am
I have to agree with at least part of your comment, “Your post basically just seemed unclear because it doesn’t really acknowledge that the real “crime” in plagiarism is claiming someone elses work or creation as your own, taking credit for something that someone else did “.
I did say it in there once but it is not clear enough, maybe I should have put it all in caps: DON’T GET ME WRONG. I’M NOT IN THE CAMP THAT SAYS, PLAGIARISM, EH, WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL? I THINK TAKING CREDIT FOR SOMEONE ELSE’S WORK IS A VERY BIG DEAL. PLAGIARISM, WHEN BOTH COMMISSION AND INTENTION ARE CLEAR, IS SHAME-WORTHY AND DIFFICULT TO FORGIVE.
And my little examples of x and y were just my dumb, misguided (and apparently annoying) attempt at humor at the end of a very long day.
For that, I apologize.
azteclady Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Fact: Kristi Diehm wrote and published a post on plagiarism a full year before she plagiarized four bloggers six time.
Fact: That post mirrors ALL the things SHE herself did when she stole the content of FOUR bloggers.
Fact: When caught by the actual creators and owners of the copyright of that content, she deleted that post–but anyone who can click on a link can read that post here (the Wayback Machine)
Conclusion: This means that, regardless of what Darcy Vance didn’t know, Kristi Diehm knew she was stealing content while she was doing it.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:30 am
I’ve waffled back and forth about reading the way back post. I don’t think I’m going to. It’s never been my intention to defend what Kristi did. I told her that the first time I wrote to her. All I’ve tried to say over and over and over is that a lot of people have questions and misunderstandings about the topic of plagiarism. This is true whether Kristi is one of them or not. And because people have questions, wouldn’t it be great if we could talk about them without shouting at each other?
azteclady Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 10:53 am
Generational thing, my aunt fanny–back when the Cassie Edwards plagiarism scandal broke, the argument how it couldn’t be expected that an old lady understood what plagiarism is. Now we are saying those poor dumb kids can’t understand it.
I call shenanigans. When told the bare bones of this one instance, both my 19 yr old daughter and my 76 yr old mother replied with, “plagiarism.”
Whether your intention was to defend Kristi or not, that’s exactly how all your comments and posts so far have come across–and not just to me, judging by replies here and elsewhere.
Further, you are engaging in deflection. When we explain what plagiarism is (i.e., what Kristi Diehm did to four different bloggers on six different occasion) your reply is how confusing it all is, how difficult to figure it out–because clearly poor Kristi couldn’t have really known what plagiarism was and done all that on purpose!
When told, again, that Kristi Diehm knew full well what she was doing, you tell us is our responsibility to educate others.
And when we do…’round and ’round we go.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Jodie Reply:
May 27th, 2012 at 11:17 am
After reading the comments, I think I see where you were attempting to come from with this post now. Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. You were actually posing questions that needed factual answers because you thought many people were unclear on what plagarism consists of and wanted to…say perhaps write an empathetic post. Your goal was to let people know they were not alone, lots of people (including you) find it a confusing subjects. You did not intend to pose rhetorical questions which were meant to imply something like ‘grey areas abound, who in the world knows where fanfic, or inspired works stand legally next to plagarism, their status has never been definined so I’ll give you my interpretation which is just as good as anyone elses’. Does this sound like a fair sum up of your intentions?
If so, good intentions, but the context of this week makes extremly likely that at least some people reading this post will interpret those questions differently. You’re putting up this post as part of a so called educational week, so automatically the reader assumes you are hear to teach a lesson on the facts of plagarism. Without knowing your original intentions it’s possible to interpret these questions as rhetorical statements, intended to emphasise that there are no fixed answers on this subjects, which is in fact totally incorrect. When these apparently rhetorical questions are asked on a known plagarist’s blog and you’re an author (which to many may imply that your opinions on subjects relating to writing are backed by the authorty of real life knowledge) that looks to me a lot like you’re expressing justification for actions of The SS. I can see now that this may not be your intention, but I feel like that’s a textual reading that you’ve opened up and now you have to deal with people reacting to your piece in that way, unless you plan to edit and clarify the main body of the text.
And with that I am out. No more bumping the stats for The SS. By the way the fact that we’re having these discussions about plagarism on the blog of a known plagarist, which results in hits to her website, which results in high stats and may bring her benefits based on those stats is uncomfortable. I’ve engaged in this discussion here in this space for way too long (sometimes you just can’t let go right
) and anything else I read about the situation needs to be away from here.
Jamie Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
People think this because she had posted about how terrible plagiarism is once before, and in said post it detailed exactly the type of plagiarism she is guilty of in this case. So either she also stole THAT post or she chose not to take her own advice. This original post has since been deleted, after the whole situation came to light, which is a little suspicious for most.
Sarah Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
Out of the myriad excuses people have offered to defend Kristi’s actions, this is without a doubt the silliest.
Darcy Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Absolutely. This is why I should be kept from all keyboards after 10PM.
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:33 am
Jamie, I understand why people are suspicious. I respect everyone’s right to make up their own mind about it.
Eden
Twitter: edenammite
Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 7:03 pm
I don’t believe that this “list of improbable things you didn’t know” is relevant to the fact that Ms. Diehm plagiarized. I didn’t know babies couldn’t eat carrots until you mentioned it here, either… but that doesn’t make it okay or plausible that Ms. Diehm “didn’t know” she plagiarized. It’s plausible that neither you nor I didn’t know about babies not eating carrots, but it isn’t plausible that Ms. Diehm was not aware she was plagiarizing.
Unless, of course, you mean “On the Lighter Side” as in you’re not truly offering an excuse for Ms. Diehm’s actions. If that’s the case, please disregard my comments above.
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:35 am
You’re right that this is not relevant. It was a lame attempt at humor after a long day of seriousness. Sorry to confuse you.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Jenny
Twitter: intothemornrds
This post? No. Just no. P&P is in the public domain so adaptations ARE legal, NOT frowned upon, & NOT considered plagiarism. And the fact that they make reference to Jane Austen as the INSPIRATION is pretty plain. Not giving credit for inspiration? It’s not the norm. It’s not acceptable. It’s wrong.
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:39 am
You are right on all accounts. My post was unclear. I was trying to point out that getting inspiration from others is a long tradition in writing. It is not plagiarism but it is a practice that I think adds to the confusion about what’s okay and what isn’t.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Annie
My two cents:
First off, Kristi should have written in her post she was ”inspired by this and this blog post from this and this website” or she should have done a post with her own thoughts and then linked to those sites in her posts, as a recommendation to her readers, so they could get their questions answers.
Secondly, Plagiarism is NOT black and white – we don’t always know that we cite something. Of course Kristi CLEARLY DID plagiarize and SHOULD have said “I’m so sorry for what I did” instead of merely a post that had “apology” as the title, but otherwise not a sincere apology in the actual blog posts.
Thirdly, sometimes when you’re VERY busy, you sometimes forget important facts (I know I have – writing about a subject matter and later realizing that I hadn’t really taken the subject entirely “in”) – like the post Kristi did a while back on plagiarism (that she later, unfortunately. deleted), is a good example of knowing something, but not really realizing WHAT IT MEANS. Kristi is NOT a very expressive or indeed a very grammatically correct writer. I see many faults (and English is not even my first language).
Fourthly, Kristi, you’re way too hard on yourself. Just because people looked up to you does not mean that you have to have an answer to EVERYTHING. Believe me, I know how that is. You made a BIG mistake because of not feeling GOOD ENOUGH!!!! That is pretty clear to see and to that, I want to say; you’re doing the best you can where you are, now, in your life. Do you have a lot to learn to ever become a writer? Hells yes! Are you flawed? Yes, but we all are; just look at your comments sections (people think they know, but SO DON’T!).
Fifth and lastly, I think you need a BREAK from blogging – get a bit away, grow as a person, find yourself and then maybe, you will be ready to face the expectations of the internet. The internet can be a hard place to be – and yes I know it has taken years for you to build this blog and build a relationship with publishers. BUT you need to be in a place where you have the time and energy to do the things that you want to do, because right now you clearly can’t live up to your own expectations and I know how that is. Do what is best for you! And maybe, the VERY BEST thing you can do is email those blogs you stole from and didn’t credit…those blogs clearly want a proper apology from you and then, maybe, they will forgive you (they clearly stated they would if you wrote a proper “I’m sorry” email) and you can move on… Isn’t that something you would want?
Be kind people!
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 12:42 am
I can’t speak for Kristi but it was a pleasure reading such a heartfelt and caring post.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Ellen Oh (@elloecho)
To be honest, I’m worried that your post is causing confusion after so many excellent posts on what plagiarism truly is. This bothers me because I think there are two different issues that you are confusing. Plagiarism is a violation of US copyright laws. It is really that black and white. I think that what you are talking about is not plagiarism but revisioning of others ideas. But that is still giving the original material credit – which keeps it from being a copyright infringement.
Having plagiarism in your title and starting off as you did is incorrect. Plagiarism is not what you are talking about at all. I caution you to be very careful in giving such misleading information in this post. I think that TSS is doing a great service by providing posts on what plagiarism is but this post is very problematic for me. I say this from my experience as an Intellectual property attorney for many years and as a college instructor of academic research and writing. I really caution you to rethink this post.
azteclady Reply:
May 25th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Plagiarism is not just a violation of US copyright. Plagiarism is claiming to have written what someone else did–which includes things under copyright in different countries, or things written before the concept of copyright even existed.
If you would, see this post by Jane Litte at Dear Author.
azteclady recently posted..Handknit Scarf – Orange, Red, Green, Blue Boucle Yarn (Explosion of Color) by HerHandsMyHands
Darcy Reply:
May 26th, 2012 at 1:18 am
You shouldn’t just be _worried_ that my post is causing confusion — you should be certain of it by now. Plagiarism IS black and white but the understanding of it isn’t. I agree that the structure of my post helped muddy things even more. I was trying to show that the writing tradition of building on the works of others, while inspiration and not plagiarism, may add to the confusion about the topic. When you add together the success of things like adaptations, the blossoming of fan fiction, along with literary tropes, and remixes and memes in popular culture, or when a Google search on a timely topic turns up page after page of the virtually the same content on different sites, is it any wonder that people don’t understand what the rules are? I get that you can be inspired by something without copying it — but does everybody? My contention through this whole week is this: The subject of intellectual property is complicated and can be confusing. If we want to reduce the theft of other’s words and ideas then we need to be able to do more than just point fingers. We need to define what is wrong, why it’s wrong and how it can be avoided. Thank you for adding your oh-so-much-more coherent thoughts to my effort.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Laurie Gray
As someone who is new to TSS, I read Darcy’s article without any knowledge of your ongoing heated debate about plagiarism. I appreciated how she addressed plagiarism in light of inspiration and creativity. She clearly states that plagiarism is a very big deal.
Many of those who have posted make it clear that the issue is black and white for them. As an attorney, author, and teacher I am finding less and less in the world that is black and white. I don’t pretend to be an expert on fan fic or formula fiction or anything, really, from a Socratic standpoint. When I read Darcy’s article in light of my own context and experience, I thought Darcy took a potentially gray area and infused it with a rainbow of color. And I would add that Darcy and I are not alone in appreciating the ambiguities of plagiarism:
“Anyone who has written or graded a paper knows that plagiarism is not always a black and white issue. The boundary between plagiarism and research is often unclear.”
~Plagiarism.org
Alanna Reply:
May 27th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Yes, there are gray areas when it comes to plagiarism but the big thing that is very straight forward and very much a black and white situation is that plagiarism is wrong and claiming someone elses work as your own is wrong. The context and reasoning behind the plagiarism, the motives and whether or not it was done with intent – those are the gray areas when it comes to plagiarism and I’d probably include what is being plagiarised as something that can make it more confusing, whether it’s a novel or a research paper or a blog post, and to what extent was the text plagiarised.
I already said in another comment, but it’s claiming someone elses work as your own that is the worst part of plagiarism (I’ve been plagiarised before – stories, not blog posts and it is such a sickening feeling having someone take my words, my thoughts and pass them off as their own. I pour parts of myself into writing – things about my dads death or my best friends or my family and then having someone take that and claim it as theirs, it’s so… violating and awful. And then there’s the time and effort I put into it only to have someone hit copy and paste and take the credit for that work.)
If Darcy’s post had been about inspiration and how writers are so often inspired by other people and other writing, then I would’ve thought this a good discussion. But in a comment elsewhere, I think she said the intent was to educate people about plagiarism and this post wasn’t particularly clear on the differences between plagiarism and being inspired by something else, or why one is wrong while the other isn’t. If someone who wasn’t really clear on what plagiarism is, I think a post like this would blur the lines for them more instead of clarifying what it is and why it’s wrong and why it’s not the same as fanfiction or memes or retellings or anything else that is simply inspired by something else.
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Darcy
And now … I’m outta here
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Bianca
Darcy, I LOVED this because you had the guts to say it straight. Not a single Author in this world has any ORIGINAL thought any more. Every book, play, song, movie, has been ripped off in SOME way from an older book. Face it, this world has been around WAY too long for -anyone- to have an original thought. At least you are a good enough Author that you can ADMIT that. & for every one on this site who feels the need to attack Darcy, how about all of you take a step back and think about what she REALLY said, and not take out of it what you like, just for the sake of arguing. Darcy is one of the most amazing people i have ever had the privilege of meeting & in no way is she third rate. Not as an Author & defiantly not as a Person.
Alanna Reply:
May 27th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
I haven’t read any of her books or met her, so I don’t consider her a third rate author or person and I think her intentions with this whole idea were good (attacking Darcy personally is crossing a line, most of the comments I’ve seen here have just been discussing the blog post and plagiarism, which is what Darcy said was her intent – to open up a discussion about the issue).
As for what you said about the lack of originality in ideas now and how a lot of things are inspired by other things – totally correct, I haven’t seen anyone disagree with Darcy on that point. BUT, the topic of the discussion was plagiarism and plagiarism is NOT the same as being inspired by something else and has nothing to do with lack of originality, and that’s why some people have an issue with Darcy’s post.
If I wrote a story inspired by Romeo and Juliet, or did a retelling of it… sure, the idea would lack originality, the originality would have to lie in the execution of it, but it wouldn’t be plagiarism, it would just be inspired by Shakespeare. But if I took Shakespeare’s words and said they were my own, that is what plagiarism is.
Darcy Reply:
June 1st, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Bianca, dear, thank you. Hope life is treating you well!
On Thursday, May 24th 2012
Natilly Jane
“I think taking credit for someone else’s work is a very big deal” – Says the respected YA book blogger who intentionally plagiarized quite a few blog posts and tweaked them ever-so-slightly, quite obviously and stupidly thinking and hoping that nobody would ever notice. Tsk tsk.